Tuesday, September 29, 2009

From a Carebear to all Assholes

You know, I'm sick of hearing people shit on "Carebears" and talk about them in such a derogatory term. The vast majority of human society is made up of "carebears" if you take the standard PvP definition. Because I don't enjoy hunting down people who are minding their own business, perhaps missioning or mining, and blowing them up or stealing their crap I'm a "carebear."

Since when is not being a dick a bad thing? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't people who whine and complain far too much in the game. If your Orca or your Hulk gets blown up you are undoubtedly going to be pissed, and yes, chances are the guy who just popped you is a raging asshole. Venting a bit and complaining about how much that asshole is an ass does not, in my opinion, make you a overly cuddly person. People, however, take it to far and fail to realize that ship loss and PvP are part of the game.

But, on the other hand, there are a fair number of "pirates" who are just childish assholes in the game. Suicide ganking a hulk just to piss someone off? You are an asshole. Flying around popping people in newbie ships just because they are a fun target? You are an asshole. If you fly around baiting people merely so you can blow up their ship, you are an asshole.

I have no problem with pirates who make piracy their way of life. They do it for salvage, they do it for cargo, they do it for ransom, they do it for whatever reason they want, that is fine. But people who log on just to be a dick to other players in the game are assholes. Remind me to call you a "carebear" next time someone beats you to a pulp for being an asshole and you go complaining to the police.

(Note - this isn't a response to http://alexiamorgan.blogspot.com/2009/09/carebears-need-to-harden-fuck-up.html and while the post by Alexia was meant more as Satire than as opinion it unleashed my Carebear Rage)


  1. You seem a little confused about what a Carebear is, so I explained it on my site. Not being a dick is obviously not a bad thing. Neither is being called a Carebear, since it can just be a title of player activity, just like Pirate, Trader, etc.

    It's the ATTITUDES that some Carebears have that are bad things, and that's what is annoying.

    If someone blows up your Orca or Hulk, you think they're a raging arsehole. But all they're doing is playing the game as it's meant to be played. It's an overly negative reaction to their completely legitimate gameplay that makes the victim a raging arsehole, not the aggressor.

    Suicide ganging a Hulk does not occur just to piss someone off. It mostly occurs because the Hulk is carrying goods that are worth the loss of the attacking ships.

    Flying around popping people in newbie ships is more likely to occur in lowsec, and more likely to occur because the newbie has goods that are worth 'liberating' from their newbie ship so that profit can be made from their destruction. It doesn't make the pirate an arsehole to be playing the game as it's meant to be played. It makes you an arsehole to complain so vehemently about others just playing the game...

    I agree that people who are just being 'dicks' are… well, they're just dicks. But it's just a stage. Eventually they get sick of picking on newbies and go off to do something else.

    See, the beauty of Eve Online is that you can do whatever the hell you like. Literally. If someone is pissing you off by ganking newbies, then you can organise a fleet to gank them back! YOU CAN DO TO THEM WHAT THEY DO TO YOU!

    So instead of whinging about other people's actions in this game, why don't you do something about it. That's what the game is about, and that's what it encourages.

    If you want people to 'play nice', start up a coalition or alliance of corporations in your area of space and create a 'police force' to suicide gank the known gankers. Through your actions you can make your area of space safe from the dicks.

    But for God's sake, stop whinging about perfectly legitimate gameplay activities. That is what makes you a Carebear that no one likes.

  2. I'm predominantly a carebear, being an industrialist. My primary PvP activity consists of acting as a cov ops scout/scanner for my corp mates.

    So I'm on the receiving end of pirates and gankers. That being said, I just don't agree with your stance that gankers are "arseholes". They are playing a sandbox game in one of the many ways available to them. The encourage us carebear types to be clever about what we do. There is a counter for nearly everything they do, and in empire especially, the odds are heavily in our favour. I think this sort of stuff helps keep the game vital by keeping people on their toes...

  3. To me a person with no honor is the one to eliminate. Pirates I know have honor, although there are some who sling that title around and have none. The attitude I have trouble with is "our play style is right, while your play style is wrong", most players I respect do not think this way, as I certainly do not.

    So if you want to care bear feel free IMO, I need ships and I am happy to use them to blow up other folks.

  4. Rage like yours is what actually encourages people to pop hulks and newbships. There is nothing that griefers like more than carebear tears. Man up and change your strategy. If you can't do that WoW is that way -->

  5. Leave it to Manasi to capture the heart of the issue. I actually referenced Manasi's comment in my own post on this topic:

    EVE Online is not a PvP MMORPG


  6. I have no problem with people who people who engage in piracy as a way to play the game, make their isk, etc. The game is meant to have that element of risk and adventure. The ones I call assholes are the ones who do it for no other reason than to be an asshole. And regardless of what Alexia may think, suicide ganking does exist in some cases merely to piss people off. I have seen it done where people do it just to be a jerk because being a jerk amuses them.

    The idea that they are just play a 'sandbox game in a way allowed' also don't really hold much cred with me. Yes, they can, within the rules, do these things and be a complete ass master about it. One of the potential problems I have with EvE is there are times when the actions don't equal the consequences.

    Sadly there will always be jerks who want to piss in the soup of society. The problem with the internet and with games like Eve is those jerks get to hide behind anonymity and use Eve as a place to just get their bullying rocks off.

    I would agree with Manasi, there are pirates and then there are Assholes. My comments were directed at the later, not the former. If this is still unclear reread the last paragraph of my original post.

  7. i can pvp, in fact i only have 750 SPs in industry on my main. i just dont feel the need to randomly gank everything that moves. I'm working my way through the blog pack and read a few posts off all of them, if its a pirate i dont subscribe to it. i dont need to read about some asshat ganking some noobship or a shuttle.
    the people who love 'carebear tears' are the asshats that have emptied lowsec from any use to the game other than a bridge between 0.0 and highsec.
    by the end of next month ill be living in a WH like StarDefender. away from your everyday griefers and with people who actually have skills to live and die on their own instead of sitting on gates with friends waiting and baiting for their isksink of gameplay.
    if everyone were a pirate, there would be nothing in the game. mission runners loot the salvage, industry players mine and build nearly EVERY ship in the game. and pirates run around and kill the things those classes created.
    they are the epitome of whats wrong with humans. destroying their habitats without a care for anything but the now.

  8. Yes, they can, within the rules, do these things and be a complete ass master about it

    And that's one of the great things about EVE. You don't get artificial protection from this sort of stuff, you get just enough to protect yourself from it if you're vigilant. To me, that's how it should be. It makes it like the stereotypical Wild West. You need to know how to look after yourself, and the strong will prey on the weak just because they're able to.

    If the game let the griefers run wild, if there was no way to escape them, I'd concede your point. But as I said in my earlier post, the odds are in our favour when we're in high sec. If you play it carefully, you don't get problems from the griefers. If you don't play it carefully and the game evolves to protect you anyway, then this existing aspect of EVE is diminished. Given that it's almost unique to EVE, that, IMO, would be a bad thing

  9. I long ago learned in psychology that the way morals develop from the most base motivations and then into more complex ones.

    The first stage of morality is like what a small child does. They don't even understand what's acceptable and what's not, so they have to be actively prevented from even trying.

    the second stage is when someone is conscious that something is unacceptable and doesn't do it only because they'll be punished.

    The third stage is when someone not only realizes that the punishable activity has consequences but that there are benefits to avoiding it.

    The fourth stage is accepting that the better course of action to avoid the punishable action and punishment or not you wouldn't do it anyway.

    The fifth stage is the same as the fourth, except now you begin to ask why certain things work the way they do.

    Now that I have that said... Just because someone -can- do something doesn't make it right or kind. People who are Pirates, Traders, Industrialists, Miners, Mission runners, etc. etc. all have valid play styles. However, I feel it's overdue to point out just because you can do something doesn't mean it's acceptable overall.

    In eve I can suicide gank peoples ships, I can pirate out in low sec space, I can join wars in 0.0 space, and I can build anything from a module to a titan (with enough time), and I can invest in stocks in a system so similar to the real world's that it amazes economists. They're all valid choices. However regardless of which ever profession you choose there are asshole and jerk choices you can make. Just because the game doesn't make it impossible to do them doesn't mean it's not a dick move.

    As a pirate I can roam lowsec and 0.0 space and fight other pirates and transports. People who are there expecting and often particpating in the potential for combat. Where people are an actual challenge in a fight usually. Then there are gankers and griefers. People who never look for fair fights, who's motto seems to be "qq moar". They suicide gank, they pop newbie ships, some will even go so far as to exploit glitches all while talking shit to their victims as if what they do requires effort. They're still pricks even though they -can- do it.

    Same goes for traders who scam people with contract mechanics, miners who try to chase people off belts by can flipping with alts or macro mine, stock traders who try to insider trade the markets, and mission runners who hassle other mission runners "stealing" wrecks by following and salvaging in non-plex missions.

    They all -can- do it. They're still jerks for doing so.

    Despite all my complaining about them being dicks/jerks for it. I still wouldn't take the ability to do that away for even a moment. Even if it means I lose my hulk, or I get podded newbie ship ferrying myself to another location so I can run 0.0 and I lose implants when I can't even fight back. It's all part of the game and it's part of why I love eve, but let's not lie to ourselves, there's nice, meh, and dick actions just because you can do something doesn't make it any more kind.

  10. I would like to say that Jirekianu was spot on my point. I've never advocated for changing game mechanics that allow assholes to be assholes. I'm just flat out calling them out for what they are.

    The argument of "the rules allow it so no one should complains" shows a very juvenile sense of morality. A landlord could easily evict someone who was going through a rough patch and missed payments because they are going through chemotherapy and unable to work, it would be "allowed by the rules." But he'd still be a dick for doing it.

  11. :resurrect:

    Funny how every time I see people passing moral judgment on players who are having fun I get an increasingly strong urge to go gank a hulk.

    If you're adverse to the kind of player interactions that involve you dying horribly, it falls to you to take steps to avoid it or mitigate your losses. Light a match instead of cursing the darkness, guys.

  12. Someone calls you a carebear? Reply with "Why yes I am and I'm proud of it! Where do you think the pimp ship you're flying came from?"

  13. Weeeeee... I guess I'll comment on this as well!

    /me casts Resurrect Thread!

    I think the fact that one can suicide gank, and pop newbships, etc, is one of my favorite things about Eve. Like others have said, it lends a Wild West aspect to the game. And I'll be honest, I have respect for people who scan down freighters, calculate the cost of the goods inside vs worth of their ships, and suicide gank it. It seems like that takes a fair bit of effort.

    In the end, I wouldn't get upset by it. Yes, you worked hard for your ore/ship/whatever, but it's the nature of Eve. It's another challenge to be avoided, not something inherently wrong with the game.

    @ Jared (if you're able to see this):
    I hope you reconsider on the part of the pirate blogs. Specifically Ka Jolo's blog found here: http://eve-pirate.blogspot.com/

    And really, I find it insulting that you won't read pirate blogs. Mostly because of the way you refer to pirates. Low-sec is a valid PvP zone for a reason. Most pirates don't even leave Lowsec. They can't! And even if they could, I doubt they'd go around suiciding. There are two things that matter to a pirate, a good scrap and loot. Now, loot is important sure, and if you see a mining hulk you aren't going to pass it up. Pirates are, by nature, some of the poorest people in Eve. The lack of a steady income, and a corp ship replacement program means that they loose money a lot. Plus, it's rather hard to find defenceless targets in lowsec. Most people are either smart about lowsec, or are looking for a fight themselves! But really what's important is a good fight. Anything else is just means to an end.

    As for having emptied lowsec of anything usefull... what do you mean by that? Lowsec has all the things highsec has, at increased risk. There was never anything 'more useful' to begin with (except POS's, but those are pretty safe usually).

    tl;dr I'll just state my views and go.

    Carebear: Someone who refuses to recognize that nonconsensual PvP (as well as other activities) are a nature of the game, and whines about such things when they happen). If you want to mine? Fine, more power to you. I couldn't ply my trade without veldspar. Industry? Same thing. I gotta get my ships from somewhere!

    Mistaken views of Pirates: Many people seem to perceive pirates as dirty bastards who would sell their mother for a penny. To be honest, that's completely wrong (what you're thinking of are ninja-salvagers, who are self admitted assholes one and all ;) ). Pirates are people who enjoy PvP enough that they wish to make a living off of it, but either don't want to hang out in 0.0 for a myriad of reasons.

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