Uneven is not Unfair

The topic of asymmetric gameplay came up recently in a blogger who has gained a bit of notoriety in the Eve circles. Tobold has recently been posting about Eve and the problems he has with Eve's mechanics. From the tenor of most of his posts I have come to the conclusion he doesn't like Eve, but I also believe he has some pretty backwards notions about game play mechanics and game theory.

He's made analogies such as:

Much is being made of EVE being a sandbox game, but in reality the new players are just playing in the dirt on the outskirts of the playground. The sandbox with the fine sand and the nice toys is occupied by bullies, and if you even get close they are going to beat you up and kick you out. So the goal in life for EVE players is to become strong, gather friends, and be able to beat up the bullies, kick them out of the sandbox, and become the bigger bully.

This over simplification of null-sec combat is really idiotic. He makes several assumptions about how battles are won and lost. Anyone who follows the chronicles of some of the fights in null-sec and low-sec space can easily come to the following conclusion, it is not just about numbers and it is not just about gear. A smaller fleet with superior strategy can take down a larger foe. Numbers help, and if all else is equal number can carry a day. But with sloppy intel and poor fleet command entire battles can be lost. The carving out of null-sec space by large corporations involves far more negotiation and political intrigue than anything else I've seen in an MMORPG. Furthermore, Tobold assumes that you need to be a big bully to enter nullsec. What you need is to join a corp in null-sec and there are plenty of options there.

In other posts Tobold said:

That is a principal problem of PvP MMORPGs: MMORPGs by definition have character advancement, in one form or another. Whether it is time played, gear gathered, real time skill training, or skills used, a player of a MMORPG is always getting better with time. Which doesn't matter all that much if he is facing PvE challenges, which can be scaled to his current power level. But if he is facing PvP challenges, the new player is at a fundamental disadvantage versus the veteran player.

and:

The point of flying into nulsec was to show that this asymmetric PvP in EVE is the rule, not the exception. And just about every EVE player commenting on that thread confirmed that in different words: Being ganked when entering nulsec is "normal". EVE is institutionalized bullying. There is no fair PvP in EVE 

 Here we truly get into the idea of symmetric vs. asymmetric gameplay. In a symmetric gameplay system all players are operating with the same advantages and disadvantages. There are plenty of games you could use as an example from Chess to a standard FPS Deathmatch. All players, typically, have the same traits and what determines the winner is luck, strategy, and physical ability. Most sports, board, and card games follow this model (poker, football, etc).

Other games are based of an asymmetric model. In an asymmetric model all players are not created equal, they have unique traits, talents, characteristics, or rules that do not apply to the other players. An example of this would be games like Team Fortress, Dune, or even Wow (racial traits make an Orc and a Tauren Warrior different). Pandemic is another great example where depending on the players role in the game they have unique rules that apply only to them.

Frankly, game theorists both love and hate asymmetric gameplay. It is much harder to model because the rules and conditions can be so varied. But Tobold doesn't seem to quite grasp what asymmetric gameplay is entirely, and he certainly doesn't grasp how it can impact all gameplay in Eve.

The first error Tobold makes is in his understanding of the skill system. I am obviously a miner, I have over 17,000,000 skill points and the majority of them fall in non-combat skills. Even through I have been playing Eve for over a year I could be taken out by a pirate who has been playing the game for less that 4 months. If Tobold's thesis was correct then I should easily be in the awesome sandbox with the bullies after playing the game as long as I have with my skill points, but he forgot a fundamental point of the design of Eve.

There are so many skill paths and options that the game requires you to specialize. Unlike WoW where all characters of an equal class level and gear level have the same access (primarily) to spells and talents, Eve is based off the idea of having countless options. Skill points, which equates roughly to character age, has no bearing on player ability within a specific skill set.

The second huge mistake Tobold makes is in his understanding of the combat mechanics of the game. When I mentioned Eve was asymmetric I meant it, in countless ways. Every single ship you can fly in the game has benefits and weaknesses. I am not just talking about the fact that different ships are weak against different types of damage and if you don't know what charge your enemy is using it is hard to pick out hardeners. I mean that even through I may be flying a battle cruiser I could be in a tight spot in I get swarmed by a bunch of frigates who can beat my tracking speed.

Sure, Tobold got popped at a gate camp, so what? I've been ganked outside of Southshore in WoW countless times. It certainly doesn't prove his point about the nature of asymmetric game play in Eve. That would be like if he sat down to play chess with Kasporov and was surprised when he lost, or if he marched in to Ulduar and was surprised when his raid didn't take down Freya on their first try. Getting podded in null sec was not a result of asymmetric game play, it was a result of lack of skill and knowledge about how to safely negotiate null-sec.

In closing Tobold said

Personally I don't like unfair fights. There is a deeper philosophical discussion to be had about the moral dimension of liking unfair fights in your favor against other players. But for now it suffices to say that I think it isn't very good game design, based on the assumption that good game design produces a maximum amount of fun for a maximum number of players.

 The notion that fights must be 'fair' is a strange one. Games have always been about a meeting of luck with wits and skill and knowledge. As I've demonstrated above Eve is not about Fair Fights any more than any other game. If you want a game that has 'fair fights' then stick to games like death match and go fish. These games have one thing in common, like most symmetric games they are simple. However, when you want to get into more complicated, more engaging, and more interesting game play then you need to enter into the realm of asymmetric games.

While Tobold may not find Eve 'fun' I think that is due to a lack of appreciation and understanding or an inability to the more complex concepts of the gameplay. But to the many people who play Eve the challenge of perfecting small skill sets and developing an understanding of game tactics that extend beyond "stay out of the fire" and "mash these buttons in this order" this is fun.

Abyssus in Terra

This entry is written for the contest posted on CrazyKinux's site found here. I wrote it before looking at any other submissions and was relieved to see that I was not the only one writing fiction. I tried to make my fiction reflect the realities of both what this will mean for game play and for what it will mean for the Eve Universe as game setting. My apologies if any of my tech or in game mechanics seem fudges as I am a relatively new player, though I will tell you that I broke out EFT for Part 3. I hope you enjoy.

Burnt Offerings and other terrible metaphors

I like games. I've played CCG (Collectible Card Games), Tabletop RPGs (more systems than I'm willing to list), board games (both American and "German" style), video games on systems dating back to ColecoVision, MMORPGS in limited varieties, FPS games, Turn Based Strategy, Tabletop Wargames (if I never paint another stinking Eldar I can die a happy man), I've even LARPed (if you don't know what LARP is I'm not going to explain it and if you do know about it you can't laugh because you are probably as pathetic a soul a me. So when I say "I like games" I am not just talking about one small corner of the genre. And while this is an Eve Blog please indulge my brief moment of exposition on gaming in general (or just don't read the post, it isn't like I'll know the difference.)

There are three main reasons I enjoy playing a game. They are as follows:

1. The story latches onto me like a pitbull convinced I'm smuggling prime rib in my trousers.
2. There is some element of social interaction that just makes the game compelling to play, in essence the game is merely a vehicle for me and my friends to have a good time.
3. The intellectual puzzle the game provides gives me hours of endless amusement, either a puzzle I must master on my own or a chance for me to grind my brain against an opponents till one of use emerges victorious.
4. Or there is an element of prowess, either through hand eye coordination, effective use of real time strategy, or some other measurable skill that exists in the moment
   
   (the main difference between 2 and 3 is the immediacy of 3. I'm allowed to mull over a move in Scrabble or a turn of Civilization for a long time, or at least until my opponent brains me. But I can't ponder the mysteries of a Zerg rush and live, its is a matter of skillful reaction.)

From a Carebear to all Assholes

You know, I'm sick of hearing people shit on "Carebears" and talk about them in such a derogatory term. The vast majority of human society is made up of "carebears" if you take the standard PvP definition. Because I don't enjoy hunting down people who are minding their own business, perhaps missioning or mining, and blowing them up or stealing their crap I'm a "carebear."

Since when is not being a dick a bad thing? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there aren't people who whine and complain far too much in the game. If your Orca or your Hulk gets blown up you are undoubtedly going to be pissed, and yes, chances are the guy who just popped you is a raging asshole. Venting a bit and complaining about how much that asshole is an ass does not, in my opinion, make you a overly cuddly person. People, however, take it to far and fail to realize that ship loss and PvP are part of the game.

But, on the other hand, there are a fair number of "pirates" who are just childish assholes in the game. Suicide ganking a hulk just to piss someone off? You are an asshole. Flying around popping people in newbie ships just because they are a fun target? You are an asshole. If you fly around baiting people merely so you can blow up their ship, you are an asshole.

I have no problem with pirates who make piracy their way of life. They do it for salvage, they do it for cargo, they do it for ransom, they do it for whatever reason they want, that is fine. But people who log on just to be a dick to other players in the game are assholes. Remind me to call you a "carebear" next time someone beats you to a pulp for being an asshole and you go complaining to the police.

(Note - this isn't a response to http://alexiamorgan.blogspot.com/2009/09/carebears-need-to-harden-fuck-up.html and while the post by Alexia was meant more as Satire than as opinion it unleashed my Carebear Rage)

Fun vs. Addictive: a reply

Recently Rakanishu over at Level Cap posted an article about  games being fun vs. addictive. I found it rather amusing considering my last post was about how thought, jokingly, that I might be addicted to Eve. Certainly online games have an addictive quality to them. They provide constant and on going challenges, there isn't a specific ending in mind for characters so there is always more to do if you so choose. I'm not entirely sure this is a bad thing or if this takes away from the fun of a game.

I might be addicted...

You know you might have an Eve problem when you have this phone conversation:

Me: Hey man what's up?
Friend: Not much, watching tv with my wife. Why'd you call?
Me: Ummm I'm out at rehearsal till 10:30 and I just checked and I only have 2 hours left on a skill and nothing queued.
Friend: Okay....
Me: You mind logging in on my account and queuing up Exhumers 5 for me?
Friend: *sigh* Sure... hold on...

Yeah, you know it's a problem when missing 4 or 5 hours of skill training time upsets you enough to call in backup. At least $15/month is cheaper than heroin.

ISK for ObelISK

Well, I've almost gotten to the point where I can fly an Obelisk. Now the one thing stopping me is ISK. As we speak I am training up Advanced Spaceship Command and then I have to drop 90,000,000 on Gallente Freighter. Once that is out of the way I merely have to scrape up the 800,000,000 for the Obelisk itself. Fortunately, one of my Corp mates builds them and has one he said he'd hold onto until I could get the cash together. I'm starting to get to the point in the game where accumulating large stockpiles of wealth are possible.

Soon I'm going to have to turn to missioning for standings. Any recommendations on that front will be welcome. Are you familiar with Zoars and Sons? Give me some pointers!

Dust in the wind

"Don't hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky"  - Kansas "Dust in the Wind"


... And apparently gamers complaining.

When CCP announced the release of Dust 514 there were many bloggers posted in open rebellion. "How dare they not intend to release a PC version?" "What do you mean my game will be influenced by a bunch of low life console monkeys?" "Great, now I need two accounts just to affect sovereignty." On and on went the litany of complaints.  There were also a number of people who seemed genuinely excited about the prospects of this new game, and I have to admit that I fall in with them.

For the record, I am not a console gamer. I own a PS3 purchased primarily to serve as a media center in my house, a DVD and Blue Ray player, and it lets me play Rock Band (and I love me some Rock Band). I never fell in with the Halo crowd, if I'm going to play a FPS I want a keyboard under one hand while my other hand lovingly grips my mouse. Even then I'm not crazy for FPS games. I enjoyed them, I've played the litany from Quake and Doom through Serious Sam, No One Lifes Forever, UT, and of course every game the people who brought us Half-Life even glanced at. So I can't say I'm adverse to the notion of the FPS, but I'm hardly an expert - more of a casual gamer who likes to hang out with friends.

I can't understand why people are so upset about Dust. Yes, it will affect Sov. Yes it will be on a console. But it also has the potential giving Eve players another game to love and it has the chance to draw in some new blood to Eve Online. And to those who think new players in Eve Online is a bad thing, I have nothing to say to you.

I think that the men and women of CCP have proven they can deliver a unique and rewarding product in the MMORPG genre, why not let them have a go at the FPS genre as well? Perhaps they will bring some new ideas to the table that will make the game far more rewarding. Here are some things that I would like to see (let me preface by saying I've only really watched the trailer - so if these ideas are already in, great, if they have already been ruled out then boo.)

Skill System for Weapons and Vehicles - Much like what we have in Eve Online, create a skill system that allows a character to improve over time as a player. Whether they use the same real time training of Eve or whether they require you to be active in the game to improve is up in the air - however, it should not be based solely on in game performance because it would skew the field. The good players would get stronger while the less skilled grow weaker, this is not very Eveian. Real time skill training could mean Older players get more use of support vehicles, better armor, and weapon improvements such as firing rate, increased range, etc. These should be make or break skills, but it would definitely give people and edge.

Give Me Another Way to Play - Let's face it, FPS games are pretty standard. You shoot a gun, climb in a vehicle, you do something, and then you die. Even Team Fortress and Team Fortress Two have only limited class roles. What I really love about Eve is the fact that I can play the game so many ways. I would love Dust to be like that. Sure, it is fun to sometimes bust skulls in FPS glory, but ever since reading Ender's Game I have dreamed of sitting in a commander chair orchestrating the movements of squads, even whole armies. RTS games aren't as fun because the AI is very limited. I don't want a squad of mindless drones, but a team of players who will react independently to changing situations. I would love to lead individuals who could either follow my orders or thing for themselves. Creating a interface to facilitate this role and this style of play would encourage me to plop down the cash for Dust.

Tactics Must be Key - This ties into the skill system, but create tactical roles for players and make tactics important. Create an interface where team mates can clearly and quickly communicate targets without the use of microphones and voice chat. Target labeling, squad and unit formations, etc. Create a "Briefing period before all missions where players can develop strategies. Players with certain skill sets can serve as tactical advisors, given access to overview maps and advanced unit command options while newer players can serve as grunt soldiers, scouts, and other roles.

Variable Terrain and Maps - There are ways to create dynamic shifting maps that would require players to be far more adaptive and would eliminate the edge of map memorization that exists in other FPS games. Easy? Probably not, but imagine the results! It opens up the potential for a scout class that is actually useful, again giving a skill path and variable play styles a role in a genre that has been fairly homogeneous.

Make Death Carry a Meaningful Penalty - No, I don't want this game to be an RPG and I understand that the FPS genre is all about running around and dying a lot while killing people. But the problem is it creates a game devoid of tactics and realism in many cases. If you encourage players to fall back and stay alive rather than suicide Zerg then that would be good. Possible ideas include gear loss, skill loss, clone spawn cooldown. This will have to be carefully balance, too steep and people won't want to play, too weak and people won't care. While it will be hard to get this right it would be completely worth doing.

Create Linked Accounts - If Dust 514 is going to go into the realm of subscription based play (another potential first with an FPS) then they need to allow dedicated Eve Players a discount of some sort. If Dust costs $10 per month then active Eve Accounts should get it for $5. Hell, even better, send all subscribers a $10 off coupon on the release. Basically, if CCP extends an olive branch to the current players they might not feel as hurt.


These are just a few of the things that I think could make Dust an amazing unique game. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the FPS that CCP puts out will be amazing regardless of the specific features. But I don't just want amazing from CCP. They have to push the envelope, redefine the genre, and deliver a product the likes of which we have never seen. That is what they get for setting the bar so high in the first place.

Why is Eve Online a good game?

(This is part two of my mini-series comparing World of Warcraft and Eve Online and highlighting the merits of both. My entry "Why is World of Warcraft a good game?" can be found here.)


So, now that I've alienated myself from some pretty fierce Eve Supporters I thought I'd share what I like about Eve as well. Just for background I've been playing Eve for less than a year. I've never been a pirate, never flown a battle cruiser, never ran a level four mission (though I have salvaged a few), I've never engaged in a duel, and I've never even set foot in a wormhole. My interests in the game have been more in the realm of mining, trade, and industry. I know that there are vast amounts of the game that I haven't even thought about let alone experienced. Which brings me to one of the first things I really like about Eve.

Why is World of Warcraft a good game?

I know that this admission might make me a pariah in the Eve blogging community, but I am a long time World of Warcraft player. Allow me to be perfectly clear. I am not a reformed WoW player. I am not a converted WoW player. I still maintain an active World of Warcraft account. I have a level 80 character who is in a sizable guild that has completed most of the end game content including Yogg-Saron, Trial of Champions, etc. Before a server transfer with friends, I was a guild master in one of the oldest guilds on my old server. I still enjoy World of Warcraft and try to attend one or two of the three major raiding nights each week.

Now I am ‘less of a player’ in the eyes of some citizens of New Eden, and I can live with that. I have seen the trash talk of WoW in the Eve Radio channel and among various people in the more populated Local Channels as well as people within my own corp. However, I think that both games deserve a great deal of credit for what they have created, and I wanted to expound a bit on what I think Blizzard has done right with World of Warcraft and what I think CCP has done right with Eve Online.

Over 11 Million Served
Yes, numbers are not everything, but let that number sink in. 11 million people shell out $15 per month for World of Warcraft. This is compared to the much smaller number of approximately 250,000 Eve subscribers. Perhaps it is the type of game, perhaps it is the accessibility, perhaps it is superior marketing, but World of Warcraft is doing something right. Now, many people say “McDonalds serves billions of burgers, but it doesn’t mean they have the best burger in the world” and they are right. However, most people try to compare a McDonald’s burger to a steak house burger and miss the issue of price point and scope. No other business than McDonald’s serves as many $1.00 cheeseburgers daily, so in that regard they are doing something right. In comparison, Eve is like Wendy’s, similar product, similar price, not as popular. That does not mean that Wendy’s is bad, but they are definitely not the same corporation as McDonalds.

Responding to the Wishes of the Players
This is something I think both Eve and World of Warcraft have done rather well. I have not played Eve as long, but it seems to me from the developer blog and from the forums that the people down at CCP maintain a very bidirectional flow of communication. This is something that Blizzard has perhaps done too well. The belief of many in the WoW community is that he who complains most gets buffed. There are exceptions to this, the paladin class had issues for over a year before it was addressed, and warriors still have problems.

Nevertheless, no one can rightfully accuse the Blizz developers of not adjusting and tweaking their game to put more shine on it. Final Fantasy 11 failed because it was too slow to adapt and change, Everquest never really changed at all. Yes, there are things to be said for consistency, but it takes a much braver set of developers to release something that may have issues and then fix them afterwards. This development style is actually something that another “evil” corporation is famous for, and that is Microsoft. They would knowingly release a version of Windows before it was 100% tested and then just patch the bugs afterwards. This is predominantly becoming the norm in the industry as evident by Apple’s latest OS release.

New Content
Yes, World of Warcraft makes you pay for expansions. This is often cited as a “sin” of Blizzard and hailed as something that makes Eve better than all. I am going to be direct and make a few more enemies by calling bullshit on this count. The average expansion costs about $60 and lasts for about 30 months. If you play the game regularly that comes out to about $2 per month, it really is not a huge additional cost when you think that the average player is dropping $180 on subscription fees a year for either game. The people who it hurts the most is those who maintain multiple accounts, however WoW is not a game that is designed around the idea of players having multiple accounts while in Eve it seems more the rule rather than the exception.

Even outside of the expansions, Blizzard is constantly adding new content in terms of Festivals, new Dungeons, New Quest lines with every major patch. Wrath of the Lich King has had 2 entirely new Raiding Dungeons added since its release. The previous expansion saw several raid Dungeons that were approached in a systematic order as well as the addition of a new raid dungeon right towards the end of the expansion.

With each expansion and patch World of Warcraft is not only creating new content, they are fundamentally changing the nature of the game. Here is just a short list of things that have been added to the game since its original release.

• Hard Mode Encounters
• Arena Teams
• Battle Grounds for PvP
• RP PvP Servers (originally all RP servers were PvE)
• Tier Tokens
• Raid and Dungeon Instancing (huge idea that made WoW better right off the bat)
• 10 Man and 25 Man dungeons to make end game content more accessible to different guilds.
• Vehicles
• Flying Mounts
• Duel Specs
• Two New Player Races (soon to be 2 more as well)
• Death Knights as a Heroic Class
• Glyphs
• Two New Professions – Socketted Gear for Gems
• Over 10 different season events
• Duel Spec Sheets to allow for more character versatility
• Badge Gear
• An Honor system and Honor Gear

I’m sure I’m missing quite a few, but you can see why I find it somewhat foolish for people to say that we have to pay for expansions. To me it seems similar to complaining when you go to see Rush Hour Two that you have to pay again, because you already  paid for Rush Hour. Personally, I think we get our money’s worth.

To Wrap it All Up
I don’t think that World of Warcraft, or any other game, is perfect. There are plenty of flaws with WoW. The level gain can be a grind. The loot system is very arbitrary (though they’ve worked to improve that with Badge and Honor gear.) The reputation system and faction grinding can make you want to punch kittens (not that Eve players would know anything about that.) However, at the end of the day World of Warcraft is one of the most successful MMORPGs ever both in terms of player base and financial success. When you are at the top of the heap you tend to draw a lot of hate from smaller groups. For examples of this look at rabid Mac users get towards a PC user or how a Linux user scoffs at someone running Windows. Watch how defensive people who feel they belong to a niche group can become towards others. Eve is a tight knit community that is vastly different from World of Warcraft, but to say WoW is a terrible game is just very narrow minded

Stay tuned for my next post where I’ll share with you some of the things that I really think Eve has done well – it probably won’t be as detailed as this, I’m a vet player of WoW and a newb in Eve, but I hope you enjoy my perspective.